Carajane Moore On Nurturing Sales Talent for Organizational Growth

Written by Matthew Ludden / December 12, 2023 / 46 Minute Read
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Change is the only constant. If your business doesn’t have a culture of change, how can you face the uncertainty that tomorrow brings? Hunt Big Sales President Carajane Moore shares her philosophies around embracing change on the latest episode of Here We Grow.


Here We Grow

Episode 6

If your business isn’t growing, it may be dying. That’s one of the principles guiding Carajane Moore, president of Hunt Big Sales. In this episode of “Here We Grow,” Carajane and Marcia advocate for a unified sales and marketing approach that champions growth and debunks outdated practices.

This episode is not just about sales processes but also highlights the importance of a company culture willing to both embrace change (it’s coming whether you’re ready or not) and the value of mentorship for transformational growth.

If you’d like to lead your sales and marketing organizations down a path of perpetual progress, you can’t miss this next-level discussion between a sales savant and a marketing master.

To learn more about the podcast and Marcia Barnes’ book Here We Grow: The Marketing Formula to 10x Your Business and Transform Your Future, visit

Key Takeaways:

  • Implementing structured sales processes with regular checkpoints liberates your salespeople to pursue new ventures and ensures a sustainable business model.
  • For servant leaders striving to steer their organizations through unprecedented times, adopting new strategies and removing outmoded practices is a necessity.
  • By fostering a culture of adaptation, you not only secure your company’s relevance but also become a beacon for top talent, inspiring them to join and grow with you.

Full Transcript

Marcia Barnes [00:00:05]:

In many businesses, there is a rift between marketing and sales groups. The purpose of marketing is to drive potential customers to the sales department. The sales team is responsible for converting those potential customers into paying ones. Marketing departments are often seen as a drain on company revenue because money is spent to generate those sales leads. Sales departments are seen as a profit center because they close the sales, which results in revenue flowing into the company. Marketing’s role in enabling sales teams to make their numbers is often questioned. I’ve heard it all. “There aren’t enough leads coming from marketing.”

Marcia Barnes [00:00:42]:

“There are too many leads for us to realistically handle. The leads we get aren’t good and waste our time. The leads we get result in spending too long with prospects and I can’t close enough sales in a day.”

If a sales team isn’t making their numbers, marketing is blamed. If they exceed their numbers, marketing doesn’t get any credit. This more traditional thinking toward the sales and marketing relationship has never sat well with me.

Marcia Barnes [00:01:05]:

So I choose not to subscribe to it.

Marcia Barnes [00:01:08]:

It doesn’t allow for a mentality of love, serve and lead, and can breed a toxic culture which does not benefit anyone. I had always approached running my teams from the perspective of enabling everyone involved to prosper, both personally and professionally. And it’s this approach that allowed me to see things differently within Defenders, then advocate for cultural and procedural changes in ways that empowered others and got results.

Here We Grow Narrator [00:01:47]:

This is Here We Grow, a show for growth-minded leaders looking for transformational impact. Hosted by Marcia Barnes if a company hasn’t grown in three to five years, they’ve institutionalized failure. This is the philosophy of our guest, president and partner of Hunt Big Sales, Carajane Moore. In this episode of Here We Grow, Carajane and Marcia trade strategies for pairing marketing and sales together to foster growth, rather than relying on an outmoded one-size-fits-all all sales approach.


Marcia Barnes [00:02:26]:

Welcome to the Here We Grow podcast. I’m here today with my friend and colleague and a great business consultant that I’ve admired for years, Carajane Moore with Hunt big sales.

Good afternoon, Carajane.

Carajane Moore [00:02:38]:

Good afternoon, Marcia. It’s great to be here. I’m glad to be here and see you. And of course, as friends, it’s always good to get together.

Marcia Barnes [00:02:43]:

Absolutely. Especially sales and marketing friends.

Carajane Moore [00:02:46]:


Marcia Barnes [00:02:47]:

Those should always be friends, right?

Carajane Moore [00:02:49]:

They should always. They’re not.

Marcia Barnes [00:02:50]:

Not always. We’ll get to that today.

Carajane Moore [00:02:52]:

Yes, we’ll talk about that and why that’s important.

Marcia Barnes [00:02:55]:

It is very important. So, Carajane, walk me through hump big sales and the history of the company. How you guys got started kind of your journey to where you’re at today.

Marcia Barnes [00:03:04]:


Carajane Moore [00:03:05]:

So Hunt Big Sales. We’re now 17 years old, and we started, my brother and partner kind of had finished out a job with a company, and he was working off of do not compete.

And so he just was starting to talk with some of his people in his YPO, and he’s figuring out how he’s going to work off his non-compete.

Does he want to buy a company?

Does he want to work for somebody?

What does he want to do?

So anyway, what happened is several of them wanted to hire him because in his previous four jobs, he had taken organizations from less than 10 million to well over 200,000,004 separate times, all within four years.

So about 16 years of doing this by landing very large deals. And so some of the CEOs in the YPO forum were like, hey, while you’re trying to figure out what you want to do, can you kind of help us do that?

And so before he knew it, he had a business, and I stepped in very shortly after that and kind of was on the operations side of the business.

Although my background is all sales, Tom’s background was all operations, and he was more client facing and the main consultant at the time. And so that’s kind of how the business grew.

Carajane Moore [00:04:16]:

And before you knew it, we had clients and speaking engagements. And then Tom launched his book in 2007, Whale Hunting. And it kind of grew from there. So that’s kind of how we got.

Marcia Barnes [00:04:27]:

Years ago, when I started Valve+Meter, I was calling on a prospect who had reached out to us in Dayton, Ohio. And I had some of our materials for Valve+Meter with me. And we employ Ashton Searcy at the time, Scriven now. And they asked me if I knew Tom Searcy. And of course, that’s your brother that you have worked with for years. And they had talked about using Hunt Big Sales, like ten years prior. So this would be like a total of 17 years ago. Must have been one of your very first clients.

Marcia Barnes [00:05:00]:

And they talked about how that really transformed their journey and their business and how they still use the practices that they were taught in your process.

Carajane Moore [00:05:09]:

That’s fantastic.

I love to hear those stories, because our stuff is really designed to install an asset inside an organization that stays with them forever, not tips and tricks of sales that kind of come and go with the people that you employ, that come and go.

In sales, it seems to come and go more often than maybe other departments.

Marcia Barnes [00:05:27]:

Well, I’m always told by sales training firms that they have clients that they’ve worked with for ten or 15 years, and they keep getting called back in to do the same training.

That’s not what your goal is in Hunt Big Sales.

Carajane Moore [00:05:40]:

Yeah, no, absolutely.

Ours is really, like I said, to install an asset. I’m going to say a sales machine, because I think people can understand that, even though it’s maybe an antiquated metaphor, but it’s designed to install that system, process machine, to go hunt and land big sales.

And then we teach you how to manage and read the dials of the machine so you know how your machine is operating.

Marcia Barnes [00:06:05]:


Carajane Moore [00:06:06]:

So I’m going to use that as a metaphor. And so we come in; do that; and we walk away. Our goal is, within three years, you’re set. You’re able to run it. You know how to run it.

Market shifts change buying and selling processes.

Marcia Barnes [00:06:22]:


Carajane Moore [00:06:22]:

And so we get called back in to recalibrate the machines that we installed earlier to what’s going on in the marketplace Today. And so we get called back in, but they’re generally for shorter periods of time, and it’s more to recalibrate to what is the market environment today and how that impacts the organization.

Marcia Barnes [00:06:42]:


Marcia Barnes [00:06:42]:

Do you get called back in when there’s an internal change, like a new sales leader, to get them up to date with what the process is?

Carajane Moore [00:06:49]:

Sometimes we get called in to bring up a new sales leader up to speed, but generally working at the executive team and primarily our clients are privately owned businesses, and so the owners are also very actively involved in the installation of the processes and systems. And so they’re the ones that really carry it forward as part of an ongoing culture within the organization.

Marcia Barnes [00:07:11]:


Marcia Barnes [00:07:11]:

That’s great. So I think that’s good. When you’re providing consulting that delivers an asset.

Carajane Moore [00:07:17]:

Right, right.

Marcia Barnes [00:07:17]:

It’s not something that people forget and wander off of. And you have to keep going back in and redoing it.

Carajane Moore [00:07:23]:

Yeah, absolutely. My big belief is that consulting as an asset or a set of deliverables, there’s measurables to it.

Marcia Barnes [00:07:30]:

Right, right.

Carajane Moore [00:07:31]:

If it’s Carajane’s pretty good idea, then over time it’s going to get diluted over Carajane’s pretty good idea.

And some people don’t learn by watching. And some people are consciously competent. Some people are unconsciously competent.

And if you don’t have anything hardcore that they can refer back to, to square themselves to do it correctly, then over time, the whole thing becomes diluted.

Marcia Barnes [00:07:53]:


Marcia Barnes [00:07:54]:

Now, obviously, you’re just a young lady in the business. But maybe you could think back and talk to me about how has the sales environment changed over the last decade or so.

Carajane Moore [00:08:04]:

Yeah, so first of all, we got to take COVID out, right? Because COVID was such a huge shift in the marketplace. Now, I’m a big proponent in saying all COVID did was accelerate all the trends that were already happening.

And so when we think about those things, that’s the work from home, right? That’s some of the other challenges of managing salespeople and the shifts in buying processes.

But over the last ten years, the shifts that are happening is that with digitization, globalization, commoditization, what you’re seeing is a significant drop in the transactional sales that are being done face to face.

No more route salespeople, no more demo dogs, you know. An increase, possibly, in RFPs, because of the need to commoditize.

You got the Sarbanes Oxley and the government’s rules that are changing how buying processes have happened.

And all of this is talking about how has the buying process shifted. And so those are what you’re seeing is changes in buying processes and also changes in buyers because of the buying process.

Carajane Moore [00:09:08]:

And so that shifts sales and marketing, I’m sure, too, in that we have to match the sales processes to your customers buying processes. And that’s where you’re starting to see a shift.

And when you move out, the salespeople at the transactional level, because they no longer add that additional value, where do they add value? And that is really the larger opportunities in the marketplace. And those are the ones that have significantly shifted as well.

Marcia Barnes [00:09:35]:


Marcia Barnes [00:09:35]:

What about who is the buyer on the buyer side? Used to be you had one decision maker primarily. What are you seeing these days?

Carajane Moore [00:09:44]:

Well, so when it’s one decision maker, it’s possibly procurement, and that’s where it’s already predefined. Your specs are defined, your budget is defined, your price per item is defined. And so they’re just managing a process to buy, but they’re not really making a buying decision, if you will.

Marcia Barnes [00:10:00]:


Carajane Moore [00:10:00]:

That has all been done. So buyers have gone up in the organization to higher levels based on the fact that a lot of it has been specked out at the lower level. And so when you go higher in the organization, you’re solving a different set of problems. The other side of it is you’re seeing more buyers in areas of operations in different organizations because they need something custom to them. Otherwise they could just buy it online. Right. So that’s part of it. When they’re larger opportunities.

Carajane Moore [00:10:33]:

You have several, many more stakeholders involved somewhere. Right now it’s nine to eleven. When we first started talking about this ten years ago, it was five to seven buyers and it was seven to nine buyers. We’re now at nine to eleven buyers on those larger opportunities.

Marcia Barnes [00:10:47]:


Carajane Moore [00:10:48]:

And they’re in all levels of the organization. And so that has to change the way we sell because we have to be able to speak at each level.

Marcia Barnes [00:10:55]:


Carajane Moore [00:10:56]:

And we have to speak to the specific problems or issues each person in each department has at each of those levels to move the buying committee to follow our sales committee to the end goal of whatever the solution is that we’re providing.

Marcia Barnes [00:11:09]:

I like it that you pointed out you have to speak to each buyer at their level or area of expertise, right? Absolutely. I’ve been a CEO for so long, sometimes I’ll run over the director of a department, whether it’s sales or marketing or operations, in our conversations. Sometimes other people on our team can be more effective with those conversations than I can just because I’ve forgotten the director language.

Carajane Moore [00:11:34]:

Well, absolutely. And that’s the other thing too, that is also shifting as we talk about the changes in sales, is you need to have those peer to peer conversations.

Marcia Barnes [00:11:41]:


Carajane Moore [00:11:42]:

Meaning you should be at the CEO level. You would want somebody on your team, maybe at the director or VP level, but you’re also going to want somebody from marketing.

Maybe somebody needs to be in quality or legal because you have to have the peer conversations because of the language that they speak and the things that they’re interested in.

Marcia Barnes [00:11:59]:


Marcia Barnes [00:11:59]:

For sure, yeah.

That makes a lot of sense too.

I can never have a conversation with you without learning something from it. There’s always, I mean, you know, a glass of wine or a coffee or a drive-by in the elevator at a meeting always seems to yield with you.

And you said something to me a few years ago at launch. You said that you often, when you’re evaluating whether it’s a good fit for you with a company, that if they’ve not grown for two or three years, you will usually turn that work down because the company has institutionalized failure and your likelihood of getting results from them is much more difficult.

Carajane Moore [00:12:39]:

Yeah, absolutely. So when trying to figure out what is the right opportunities for you, we work with our organizations to build out these really detailed, and I think in your work you call them personas. We don’t get so detailed in the persona so much as we do the ideal opportunity. So the ideal opportunity includes generally for us, eleven to twelve characteristics. Not just is it the top logo that I want. And do they have the type of revenue or whatever? But there’s a series of characteristics. One of those is that they have to be ready and able to make change.

Marcia Barnes [00:13:12]:


Carajane Moore [00:13:13]:

Because what we do, like I said, we’re going to install an asset and it’s going to become a culture within the organization. How they work is going to change. And if they’re not ready to make change, we’re not going to be successful. And what we’ve learned is organizations that after 36 months of not reaching their goals, don’t know how to reach their goals. Organizations are perfectly designed to get the results that they’re getting.

Marcia Barnes [00:13:36]:

Deming yeah.

Carajane Moore [00:13:37]:

So if you want to change your results, you have to change your design. And people at that point in time are not ready to. They don’t have a culture of change which allows them to get there. And so something significant in that organization has to change for whatever I’m going to do or you do will actually take place.

Marcia Barnes [00:13:57]:


Marcia Barnes [00:13:57]:

And I think if I flip that on its head, a lot of times I get challenged on why do I have to grow? Why is that an indicator of success? And I think that’s it, that it keeps you growth, keeps you fluid enough.

This is a planet that has been created in an organic way, and bringing it into order is an assignment of mankind. And so things that are not growing, I don’t go as far as to say if you’re not growing, you’re dying, but your ability to be able to move forward in the future is certainly compromised on a lot of different levels.

Carajane Moore [00:14:32]:

Absolutely. Well, and like you say, it’s natural. What do we know for sure is going to happen?

Nature changes. We have four seasons. Things change all of the time.

We’ve also learned very recently, since pandemic world changes are significantly faster, and they talk about how fast that happens. Well, if you don’t have a culture of change, you are going to struggle now going forward because your organization isn’t prepared for change.

And what do we know is going to happen?

Something is going to change, and it is always changing.

Carajane Moore [00:15:03]:

So we have to have cultures of change. And cultures of change are what allow growth.

Marcia Barnes [00:15:08]:


Carajane Moore [00:15:08]:

And why do we want to grow?

Because we want to be relevant to our customers. What we provide. And the solutions that we offer need to be relevant if we’re going to continue to be in business.

So I think growth is one and the same as being desirable to stay in business.

Marcia Barnes [00:15:23]:


Marcia Barnes [00:15:24]:

The other thing that doesn’t often get talked about in line with that is the ability to recruit talent.

If you’re not growing, a smart candidate is not going to look at you seriously, because if you’re not growing, there’s not opportunities for them to grow with. If you’re not growing,

it’s more easy for you to fall into disarray and fail entirely. So I advise people all the time who are asking me about what they should be looking for in a job. Find a place that’s growing, in a market that’s growing, because the opportunities for you there will be higher than being in someplace that’s flatlined or going backwards.

Carajane Moore [00:15:56]:

Right, exactly.

Well, because we’ve been in business, owning our own business, we all understand what it’s like to have that boot on your throat, right?

And you don’t want to step into an organization where it’s going to take you just a little bit of time to assimilate to begin with, to get your feet running, to step in with a boot on your throat, to get going.

And talent doesn’t need to do that today. I mean, everybody’s looking for talent. If you’re talented, you don’t need to step into organizations that you’re going to struggle to start with.

Marcia Barnes [00:16:23]:


Marcia Barnes [00:16:24]:

Going back to how knowledge just drops off of you in every sentence. It seems like to me recently I was working with someone who wanted to come in as a consultant, and I had hours and hours and hours of meetings with this person.

And in that journey, even just in the decision to buy, I never really learned anything. And to me that seemed like this could be a bad consultant.

So you live in this consulting world? I live in part of it, too. What makes a bad consultant?

Carajane Moore [00:16:51]:

Well, first and foremost, I think there’s several characteristics that make a great consultant. So I guess it’s the reverse of what I’m going to say, to some extent, positive…

Marcia Barnes [00:17:00]:

But thanks for reframing me there.

Carajane Moore [00:17:04]:

Yeah, no worries.

So I think a great consulting engagement is where the consultant has a series of measurables, behavioral, numeric, quantitative measurables, of what they’re going to do and how the change is going to take place. Because we’re hiring consultants to build a better future.

Marcia Barnes [00:17:22]:


Carajane Moore [00:17:22]:

To solve a particular problem. And we all know that that problem is going to be solved down the road, or at least that’s what we think. But we need to know, what are the leading indicators?

So are those measurables?

Are there milestones that they can measure?

Can they demonstrate that they’ve done that in the past? And the milestones at milestone points? Right. So are they measurable right? First and foremost.

The second thing is, as you’re going through the sales process, and I think you and I both come from a world of abundance, I’ve got processes and systems and proprietary information, right. But it’s our ability to help somebody execute against those that makes us the differentiator.

Marcia Barnes [00:18:00]:


Carajane Moore [00:18:00]:

So I want to share as much as I can about what we’re doing. And so sharing wisdom, sharing ideas, sharing directional, where I would take you and why I would take you or question some of your ideas along the way. I always push on my prospects. I challenge them.

Friction shows investment.

Marcia Barnes [00:18:21]:


Carajane Moore [00:18:21]:

If I’m not challenging you and you’re not pushing back, then I’m not sure you’re invested in the ideas that were going on.

So I think good consultants share what they’re doing, some of their knowledge up front, because they’re not afraid that you’re going to take it because you’re hiring them for the implementation of it. Right, to get the outcomes and that they’re measurable.

So many times people have had bad consulting engagements because they didn’t have a clear outcome of what they wanted the engagement to produce and in what time frame to do so.

Marcia Barnes [00:18:48]:


Carajane Moore [00:18:48]:

And so then it gets all done and they don’t have what they want and the consultant giving them all the information, but they don’t have the outcomes. And you didn’t hire them for the information, you hired them for the outcomes.

Marcia Barnes [00:18:59]:


Marcia Barnes [00:19:00]:

I’ve seen too, in the teams that I’ve worked on when we’ve brought consulting in, that you can be bad at using consulting. Oh, absolutely. So the examples that I’ve seen here is there might be those nine to eleven people who weighed in on the buying process.

Marcia Barnes [00:19:17]:


Marcia Barnes [00:19:17]:

They all go away but one. And you have one connection into that business, and now that person is not picking it up and getting it implemented inside the business correctly. Yeah, that can be a big waste of money and time, too.

I’ll give you an example.

We brought in a consultant here at Valve+Meter a few years ago, and the objective got too broad. Like it could help sales, it could help Lead Gen or Accounts. It could help our outreach team, and it could help account managers. But we decided to start with a project on the lead gen side. And so we’ve got one person working with the consultant, but two others calling the consultant, asking questions and trying to figure things out along the way.

Marcia Barnes [00:19:59]:

And that ended up getting the consultant in trouble on our side because the one person that was supposed to be launching the program wasn’t launching it. Correctly.

And then the team’s kind of standing around going, well, see, this isn’t working.

Carajane Moore [00:20:12]:

Yeah, absolutely. Well, one of the things that I’m going to say, no matter what we’re doing in an organization, you should never be single threaded.

Marcia Barnes [00:20:20]:

Yeah, absolutely.

Carajane Moore [00:20:21]:

And so, yes, possibly you guys didn’t handle it well, but then the consultant should never allow themselves to be single threaded through one person.

Marcia Barnes [00:20:27]:


Carajane Moore [00:20:28]:

There should have been an orchestrated way of implementing what you’re going to do throughout the organization up front, even if you have only one point of contact, then there’s regular connections with you; there’s regular connections with other departments, because as a business, we all are integrated.

All of the departments are integrated. So whatever you’re doing in one department is going to affect other departments. And so recognizing and doing the full 360, I think, is important.

And I think organizations who hire consultants to come fix one thing, one small thing, or one small department or one small issue, are not scoping correctly what they’re trying to accomplish or the impact that it’s going to have, which will create other problems, and therefore, without the other people’s buy in, it will get killed.

Marcia Barnes [00:21:12]:


Marcia Barnes [00:21:12]:

But another thing I’ve seen happen, it reminds me of Dan Sullivan’s teaching from strategic coach, the gap.

Carajane Moore [00:21:18]:


Marcia Barnes [00:21:19]:

I love the gap where if you stand on a cruise ship deck on the day that your cruise takes off and you look into the horizon, you see that as your destination. You sail for two days and you look into the horizon, you still see that as your destination. And often we do that with our goals.

We start something and we get to a point in the horizon, and then we shift the goal higher than what we started with. Just human nature, especially the human nature of successful people.

Carajane Moore [00:21:47]:

Yeah, I’m a huge person that does.

Marcia Barnes [00:21:50]:

That, which creates, I do, too.

Carajane Moore [00:21:52]:

Huge stress on the teams.

Marcia Barnes [00:21:53]:


Carajane Moore [00:21:53]:

Because it doesn’t feel like we’re progressing or we haven’t accomplished anything. And that’s why with the Dan Sullivan gap, you got to look behind you to see your progress, I think.

Marcia Barnes [00:22:03]:

Yeah. Well, his big message is that I took away from it. It’s progress, not perfection.

Marcia Barnes [00:22:07]:


Marcia Barnes [00:22:08]:

So the consultant comes in and they get you to the place you wanted to be, but when you’re halfway to that place, you shift the goal even further. And we see that a lot, even on the jobs that we do with clients, where it’s easy to quickly forget what the state of marketing was when we got there. And 18 months later, you’re like, well, why isn’t this tripled again? Oh, absolutely.

Carajane Moore [00:22:29]:

And back to Dan Sullivan, progress, not perfection. Also, when you’re standing in the middle and you’re looking at that future horizon that we’ve moved, you feel like you’re at failure.

Marcia Barnes [00:22:38]:


Carajane Moore [00:22:39]:

Because it’s now so far away, because you’ve shifted that. And so that’s one of the reasons why I talk about those milestones, and especially in consulting practices as well as other businesses, is if you have a measurable point and a milestone, you are always able to then walk back and go, this is what we’ve made, and this is the progress we were supposed to make by now.

Marcia Barnes [00:22:58]:


Carajane Moore [00:22:58]:

Which helps us stay anchored in that progress and not perfection along the way. And so I just find that those milestones at time points of what should have accomplished right now, and the review of that also helps your buyers, my customers, your customers not get into the failure gap.

Marcia Barnes [00:23:20]:

I got to end this.

Carajane Moore [00:23:21]:

We’re not getting anywhere. And you’re four weeks in.

Marcia Barnes [00:23:24]:


Marcia Barnes [00:23:26]:


Carajane Moore [00:23:27]:


Marcia Barnes [00:23:32]:

Now, something I spend quite a bit of time on in my book Here We Grow, is the relationship between sales and marketing.

Carajane Moore [00:23:39]:


Marcia Barnes [00:23:40]:

And, you know, we’ve all been there. I’ve worked in both departments. You and I often have some giggles and grins over how a lead is qualified by a sales team.

Carajane Moore [00:23:50]:


Marcia Barnes [00:23:52]:

From the marketing team. And I’ve said if I made a slide that reflected or a picture that reflected what sales calls a qualified lead, it would be a front door cracked open and a hand that’s reaching out with a credit card in it. That’s a sales qualified lead.

Carajane Moore [00:24:07]:

Yes. Because they are already buying before the salesperson. I know. It’s very funny because salespeople want that, the whole deal handed to them on a silver platter.

Marcia Barnes [00:24:16]:


Marcia Barnes [00:24:17]:

And the marketing team wants every lead, no matter how qualified, to close.

Marcia Barnes [00:24:20]:

Right. Right.

Carajane Moore [00:24:21]:

Well, I think one of the things you do significantly better than I’ve seen a lot of people is truly the understanding, because you’ve done both sides of the house, the understanding of what is a valuable lead to you and what is a waste of time.

Marcia Barnes [00:24:37]:


Carajane Moore [00:24:37]:

And that waste of time is very expensive for the organization and very expensive for marketing dollars because you’re trying to get a return on the investment as well.

Marcia Barnes [00:24:45]:


Carajane Moore [00:24:46]:

And so being so clear about what is a market qualified lead, what can we get to? And then what can sales get to, I think is one of the big misnomers, and that’s what creates a lot of tension unnecessarily. So, because you and I agree every time we talk about it, we agree. Right. So it’s just a misunderstanding. I think, in the marketplace of a market qualified lead and what you can get people to and a sales qualified lead and what they are responsible for before we determine it’s a qualified opportunity to continue to go after or hunt.

Marcia Barnes [00:25:19]:


Marcia Barnes [00:25:20]:

Oftentimes we see, and I know you see this, too, where companies are dependent on salespeople to creating their own leads, closing their own leads, onboarding their own leads account, managing their own leads, which is just so difficult to find the person who can do all of that.

That’s a unicorn, right?

Carajane Moore [00:25:39]:

Well, it’s a unicorn, and actually, it doesn’t serve the organization well.

And that’s one of the pieces that people are like, well, I don’t need three people. I only need one person. And the problem is you have lost so many opportunities because of the way you’re managing the one person versus the three people.

Because first, they have different skills.

Second of all, they have different jobs and different measurements.

Marcia Barnes [00:26:03]:


Carajane Moore [00:26:03]:

Third, there are three different processes that have to be followed to get to that. And I will tell you, I don’t know if you’ll agree with me, but I will tell you, if you are a hunter and you end up having to manage your own accounts, you get bogged down in the mire of the day to day and you stop hunting.

Marcia Barnes [00:26:21]:


Carajane Moore [00:26:22]:


Marcia Barnes [00:26:23]:


Marcia Barnes [00:26:24]:


Carajane Moore [00:26:26]:


Marcia Barnes [00:26:27]:

Keep those folks busy with new leads and getting the new accounts on board. Absolutely. I run into a very high percentage of the B2B clients that I will talk to. What they’ve got is they don’t have any hunters. They think everybody was a hunter, but once they had a few accounts to manage, they just kind of are sitting in the existing accounts. And they’re not always the best person to grow the account.

Carajane Moore [00:26:48]:

And hunters probably aren’t the best people to grow. Know some of the personalities Tom and I talk about when we talk about hunters versus farmers, and I know people probably have heard this analogy, but hunters love cocktail parties.

They want to go meet new people and new things and have all the newness of the opportunity and the conversations and the glitz and all of the rest of that stuff. And farmers are family reunion people.

Marcia Barnes [00:27:15]:


Carajane Moore [00:27:16]:

They want to go see the same people, talk to them, get caught up on what’s going on, learn some of the new things about what’s going on. But to the same people, that relationship building where hunters are, let me go. Kill it.

Marcia Barnes [00:27:27]:

Throw it over the wall.

Carajane Moore [00:27:28]:

Move and kill.

Marcia Barnes [00:27:29]:


Carajane Moore [00:27:29]:

And when you take hunters and you put them into farmers, then they just kind of lose that desire, that hunger that made them so great as a hunter.

Marcia Barnes [00:27:39]:


Marcia Barnes [00:27:39]:

No, it’s absolutely true.

You and I work on some deals once in a while, which in my mind is the perfect solution for a lot of the companies I talk to because often it’s unknown if the sales force can close new leads. There’s not enough new leads that have been coming in to get a good metric on it. Most of the business is coming in from word of mouth or referral. So if you’re in there and you’re putting in the process to close deals coming from marketing, it kind of removes that question mark for me on your side. You can get somebody up and ready to sell, but if there aren’t any.

Carajane Moore [00:28:17]:

Leads, there’s no volume, there’s no velocity. So they can’t learn, they can’t get opportunities. And we can’t verify the language and the processes and systems that have been built if there’s not enough volume going through the processes to tweak it.

Marcia Barnes [00:28:33]:


Marcia Barnes [00:28:33]:

Last year we started working together with a client, MCL, in Pennsylvania. They manufacture circuit boards. Yes. And they were kind of at a spot in their business where they were ready for exponential growth. They wanted to try and kick it up a notch and brought you in on that assignment.

Carajane Moore [00:28:51]:

Yeah, absolutely.

They are a great opportunity, and I’m so glad that we’re working on them together because I was able to get them really tightened down into what are the opportunities they really wanted?

They were getting all their leads from things that were coming into the website. And you and I know that the website wasn’t converting great at all, but they were getting everything, everything from universities to buyers to people who are just curious.

Marcia Barnes [00:29:19]:


Carajane Moore [00:29:19]:

And so by us really narrowing down, what is it the problem they solve? Because there’s a lot of print circuit board manufacturers out there.

Marcia Barnes [00:29:28]:


Carajane Moore [00:29:28]:

So getting it to what are the problems they solve and for whom do they solve them uniquely? We were able to really tighten the type of market. You could be really successful in generating leads, and then we were able to tie that back through a sales process. And then their CRM system and their growth has been phenomenal over the last year. And I think it is the hand in hand sales and marketing approach that really made the difference. And they’ll tell you that that made the difference at their account.


Marcia Barnes [00:29:57]:

Yeah. The thing that was interesting to me on that as I watched it play out, because I hit this a lot and being in the deal with you on the sales side helped solve it. But they had a number of leads in their mind that they needed per month to hit their goal.

Marcia Barnes [00:30:12]


Marcia Barnes [00:30:12]:

And I could not get them easily off of that. It’s not the number of leads that you need. It is the number of leads that are the right quality. That close?

Carajane Moore [00:30:21]:


Marcia Barnes [00:30:21]:

It’s all about the return on marketing spend because they had had a lead generation partner who was giving them for a while, gave them the number of leads they were looking for, but they weren’t closing anything from them.

And then they’re coming to me wanting to price that number of leads. I said, well, I can get you that number of leads if you’re not worried about closing them.

But it seems to me like we got that upside down.

Marcia Barnes [00:30:42]:


Carajane Moore [00:30:42]:

Right, absolutely.

Marcia Barnes [00:30:43]:

We kind of both had to walk them through that. And what ended up happening? Your process put in place where their first sale ended up increasing a lot. So the client’s usual process is they make an initial sale and then that client becomes a big sale as they go through their first and second years with them.

Carajane Moore [00:31:02]:

Yeah. So once in a while it would turn into a big sale, but they weren’t really making that process happen intentionally.

Marcia Barnes [00:31:09]:


Carajane Moore [00:31:10]:

And in their marketplace, this speed to first buy, speed to quote is really what we talk about, is the speed to quote is one of the things that was really important to them is being able to keep that speed to quote.

And my answer is we’re not going to slow down the speed to quote, but we’re going to make sure we have a clearer understanding of what we’re quoting, because if we understand better what we’re quoting, we’re going to land more of the quotes and we can increase the value of the quotes, the first order, and therefore, because of who they are and how their processes work, they were able to then pick up very quickly additional pieces.

And so the average first sale increased, the average value of a first year client increased, and then the number of deals or accounts that ended up being greater than $100,000 significantly increased because of the follow on processes and systems that fit their marketplace and their buying processes of that marketplace.

Marcia Barnes [00:32:07]:

And they’ve closed some seven digit deals. Absolutely. So that’s always fun, too. And they increase the throughput. So that’s something that gets overlooked. A lot of time in cash flow management is the time from the activity you’ve paid for, like marketing or sales consulting or sales wages, into where cash is coming in from it, because we collapse that timeline, too.

Carajane Moore [00:32:26]:

Yeah, absolutely. And the other thing that I think is interesting is so many times organizations, I think, get lost on a salesperson or whatever, and if they don’t have the right number of salespeople or the right things, they can’t get where they want to go.

Marcia Barnes [00:32:40]:


Carajane Moore [00:32:41]:

And that goes back to the number of leads they have to have to feed the number of salespeople they have to have. And it’s fascinating is that they have significantly increased their sales, significantly increased their value in dollar amounts, and they only have one salesperson, in fact, reduced salespeople.

Marcia Barnes [00:32:58]:

One salesperson and 25% of what they thought the number of leads was that they needed.

Carajane Moore [00:33:04]:


And they lost a salesperson, or they replaced one or two salespeople along the way inside that year, because we all know salespeople kind of come and go for a variety of reasons.

So they had to replace some salespeople, and that did not significantly impact their overall growth or revenue because they had a process, they had a system. They had an organization that was trained in using that process and system. Right. And they had a way to leverage and value the right opportunities in the right places to keep that going.

Marcia Barnes [00:33:36]:


Marcia Barnes [00:33:36]:

I would imagine, too, it makes the salespeople more sticky when there’s a supply of leads that are high quality because the salesperson is actually able to make more commission.

Carajane Moore [00:33:45]:

It does make a salesperson more sticky. But your salesperson has to be, no matter what, you have to have a good salesperson. Absolutely right. So you have to have somebody that is understanding. And a lot of salespeople are now, I would say in the last three to five years, getting more used to a strict standard process versus the old, “Yeah, here’s a playbook.” Blow off the dust and take a look at it. But nobody really uses it where now people are really, we understand that sales process is going to Make the difference in the scalability of an organization.

Carajane Moore [00:34:15]:

People are starting to get used to it. But we still have a lot of Lone Rangers out there. And putting a person that’s a Lone Ranger into a strict sales process doesn’t always go well. You’ve got to get people who are used to sales process because then they thrive.

Marcia Barnes [00:34:30]:


Carajane Moore [00:34:30]:

But if you’re for the first time taking somebody who’s used to doing whatever they want and make them do it this way, you’re going to lose a few along the way. And that is just part of It.

Marcia Barnes [00:34:38]:

Now, I’m a huge fan of process. We always said at another company I worked at that systems are the solution.

Marcia Barnes [00:34:44]:

Right? Yeah.

Marcia Barnes [00:34:45]:

The owner would say there’s no bad people, only bad process. And as good as I am at knowing what processes need to be built and building them and following them. I, inevitably, in sales, will forget to do things…start to forget to do a thing that was important in that process.

Do you have any kind of recommendations on how to audit that?

Because It will show up where I lose a deal. I’m like, you know what? I’ve wandered off this thing that I always do, and I need to get that back in there. It would have prevented that from happening..

Carajane Moore [00:35:13]:

So we have five dials in our sales process, and those dials are the people, their side and your side, the information, their side and your side, and the cycle time. And those are all specified out at each stage in the sales process. So that one thing that you normally do would be part of your sales process in a stage.

Marcia Barnes [00:35:34]:


Carajane Moore [00:35:34]:

And it’s a stage gate, so you do a checkbox. Did I get these things done? And if I didn’t do that at this stage, you’re going to catch that.

Marcia Barnes [00:35:41]:


Carajane Moore [00:35:41]:

Because you can’t move to the next stage.

Marcia Barnes [00:35:43]:

That’s good.

Carajane Moore [00:35:43]:

And you’re going to back. Back up, get that one thing done so you can move forward.

Marcia Barnes [00:35:47]:

That’s a good idea.

Carajane Moore [00:35:48]:


Marcia Barnes [00:35:48]:

All right. When we tell the team that, I’m not going to say I did it. I’m going to just say some people.

Carajane Moore [00:35:53]:

Right, right.

Marcia Barnes [00:35:56]:

We’ll just pass this one along, as someone on the team said. Right?

Carajane Moore [00:36:00]:

Yeah, right, exactly.

Marcia Barnes [00:36:02]:

Good. I’m also a big fan of transformation, and I’ve sat in a very special seat the last several years with you as I’ve watched you transform yourself into the president at Big Hunt Sales.

Can you talk to me about what that’s been like?

I define transformation as a noticeable change in form and substance. And, lady, you have delivered that all across the board.

Carajane Moore [00:36:26]:

Oh, well, thank you.

No, it has been a huge transformation. And I think as I started in the business, I was behind the scenes running everything, but I wasn’t client facing, and I wasn’t facing.

I did some sales and I ran the operations side, and my brothers, both Tom and Tim, were the consultants at the time. And along the way, we’ve had some medical issues in the family, and Tom has not to be able to be client facing anymore, and Tim has passed away.

And that all happened within a very short window. And at that same time, my dad had one of the several cancers. And so there was a point in time in which it became clear that I was going to have to step into this know, and we talk about it happening in two rooms in a hospital room and in a funeral home room.

Carajane Moore [00:37:15]:

And so I had to step up and take in and become leader of the organization, or the organization wouldn’t have gone forward. Right. And so through that, we talk about transformation, and I think transformation happens through pain. Right. And as I started to take on the role of being a president and understanding what that role looked like, what that needed to be, who I needed to be, I had to really understand who I was, who Carajane was. And I had a false narrative out in the world of what I thought I wanted people to think. And I’m sure I’m not the only one who’s ever done that, but I had this false narrative that I was saying out in the marketplace. And as I became more and more forced to be in a position to be me and be me and be comfortable being me, because I had to make the decisions and be that, and I couldn’t do that and then play this false narrative.

Marcia Barnes [00:38:09]:


Carajane Moore [00:38:09]:

And all the rest of that, I learned to grow. I had great mentors like you and other women that I relied on to talk me through. I ended up going through a divorce. The narrative at home and the narrative in the marketplace weren’t the same narrative.

Marcia Barnes [00:38:23]:

That’s a lot.

Carajane Moore [00:38:24]:

And so through that, through those painful moments, through those opportunities to really learn who you are, and for me, being faith based, learn who I am in God’s light.

Marcia Barnes [00:38:38]:


Carajane Moore [00:38:38]:

I was able, through God’s blessing, to grow into this role, and he gave me the time and the space to do that growth.

Marcia Barnes [00:38:46]:


Marcia Barnes [00:38:47]:

Most people aren’t able to do those career turns past the age of 40 or so. So you had just a few more years to go.

Carajane Moore [00:38:55]:

Yes. That young woman that I am.

Marcia Barnes [00:38:57]:


Carajane Moore [00:38:57]:

That we keep referring to.

Marcia Barnes [00:38:59]:

Yes, that’s right.

But there’s some heavy stuff you’re going through grieving and for the broken marriage and all the labels and the energy that can go along with that, and yet you could clearly see you walking in the way you were created through all of that. Well, it was remarkable.

Carajane Moore [00:39:16]:

Thank you. I’m going to say it’s all God. I leaned into my faith. I had to. I had nothing right. The business, when I had all of a sudden no consultants, and I had to call all the clients, and I had to tell them my brother had passed, he was not going to be able to be their consultant anymore, but I promised them that we were going to meet the commitments that we had made to them.

Marcia Barnes [00:39:39]:

And you did it.

Carajane Moore [00:39:40]:

And I stepped up and I became the consultant, and we did that. And we made all of those commitments and we kept many of those clients. We didn’t keep all of them, but we kept many of those clients. And then we, over time had to also transform the business.

Marcia Barnes [00:39:54]:


Marcia Barnes [00:39:55]:

There’s a proverb that I lean on a lot. Proverbs 31:25, I believe, “She is clothed with strength and dignity and laughs without fear of the future.”

Hold on to that one for a while.

Carajane Moore [00:40:07]:

Yeah, I love that.

Marcia Barnes [00:40:09]:

I love that because it’s really been remarkable what you’ve done with the company. You’ve co-authored some books now, too, with Tom. Yeah, I loved what you did in COVID. When the world came to a stop and everybody was trying to figure out sales, you guys paused and wrote, wrote.

Carajane Moore [00:40:23]:

How To Sell In Place because it was a turn on the shelter in place.

And, yeah, so it was so interesting because we were going in an entirely different direction with the business. We were going to go into a licensed consulting model at that time. Our last set of training happened that Friday before the government kind of said you got to all shelter in place.

So that was on March 16. And by May 5, we had already launched the book. And by July, we had launched the video program and to teach people, they were not prepared, who were used to going out and having coffees and doing a variety of things.

Carajane Moore [00:40:59]:

How do we do this?

Marcia Barnes [00:41:00]:


Carajane Moore [00:41:00]:

And I had been selling over the phone hundreds of thousands of dollars of consulting services at a time over the phone. So we just use my processes and systems and how I did that to help our clients and others make it through.

Marcia Barnes [00:41:15]:

Right. All right.

Marcia Barnes [00:41:21]:

Now your most recent book, The Secret to Big Sales: Use Executive Language To Llose More Deals, just came out. Available on Amazon. It’s really, really great book.

Mine had a gold medal book tag in it with a profound quote on it, “You get sent to whom you sound like, you stay, with whom you impress, you close and grow those who believe.”

And I just find this to be something that I’m constantly reminding us in the sales process. There’s a part of the book where you and Tom are talking about the salesperson who comes back from their first meeting and go, they love me. It’s going to be a deal. I’m 99% sure.

Marcia Barnes [00:41:58]:

And you guys know what that really means?

Carajane Moore [00:42:02]:


Marcia Barnes [00:42:02]:

They had a good friendship. Doesn’t mean it’s a deal.

Marcia Barnes [00:42:05]:


Marcia Barnes [00:42:05]:

I call it sales theater. When we’re talking about the things we did and not the deals. We’re closed. That we’ve closed.

Marcia Barnes [00:42:10]:


Carajane Moore [00:42:11]:

For sure.

Marcia Barnes [00:42:11]:

What is the secret to big sales using this executive language? What is this problem you’re solving for here.

Carajane Moore [00:42:18]:

Yeah. Well, so as we talked a little bit earlier about the buyers are moving up in the organization.

Marcia Barnes [00:42:23]:


Carajane Moore [00:42:24]:

The size of the deals are getting larger that are going to require a salesperson’s involvement, and we have to speak to the right people at the right language at the right levels. What we were finding is our clients and many of the people we spoke to, their sales reps did not know the language of the executive suite.

Marcia Barnes [00:42:40]:


Carajane Moore [00:42:41]:

They didn’t know how to speak to them. They didn’t know how to connect with them. And not at this. We’re going to have coffee as friends, but as an expert being able to solve their problems.

Marcia Barnes [00:42:50]:


Carajane Moore [00:42:51]:

And so we knew that we had processes, systems, and tools to teach people how to have that conversation, how to talk about money versus price, how to use the art of influence through the authority arc to establish your expertise so that you can stay with whom you impress.

Marcia Barnes [00:43:08]:


Carajane Moore [00:43:09]:

And then use all of your case studies and stories that show that you’ve done this problem, solved it before to get them to believe, to grow.

Marcia Barnes [00:43:17]:

Yeah, that’s awesome. I think, too, it’s important for young leaders to be able to be in environments where they can practice having those conversations, too. Absolutely. I know you do a lot of mentoring and helping, especially women business leaders, especially the younger ones, to hone their craft.

Marcia Barnes [00:43:34]:


Marcia Barnes [00:43:34]:

But I think being in circles where we’re communicating with them so they get the practice of going shoulder to shoulder with an executive is important, too.

Marcia Barnes [00:43:41]:


Carajane Moore [00:43:41]:

That’s one of the things that I often encourage the executives that I work with. You want your team to have business acumen so that they can have these conversations, but you don’t share any of the business conversations with them.

Marcia Barnes [00:43:52]:


Carajane Moore [00:43:52]:

You need to share the business conversation with them. When I see this number in my financials, this is the analysis of that number. That’s what that means for us long term in the marketplace when we see this happening, this is the analysis of that, this is the implications of what that’s going to mean long term.

Marcia Barnes [00:44:12]:


Carajane Moore [00:44:12]:

Executives think of a better future further down. They’re not thinking about the problem today. So if you’re in sales, you’re selling a better future no matter what you’re doing. If you’re talking to an executive, if you’re talking to a manager, you’re solving a today problem.

Marcia Barnes [00:44:27]:


Carajane Moore [00:44:27]:

And if you’re talking to a VP or a director, you’re solving a midterm problem. It’s not really a better future problem.

Marcia Barnes [00:44:35]:


Carajane Moore [00:44:35]:

And so that language has to shift, and they need to be able to shift with it. And so I love the fact that you spend time talking to your team about the real of the business. I do with my team. And I encourage all of the CEOs I work with Talk the business with your team about business.

Marcia Barnes [00:44:52]:


Marcia Barnes [00:44:53]:

And introduce them to folks in your network and agree to see your partners like Fred Roman at RPM and know I’ll meet with Fred anytime he likes. And we’re talking business acumen the whole way.

Carajane Moore [00:45:04]:

Right, right.

Marcia Barnes [00:45:05]:

But I can send one of my people over to talk to Fred about that, and that’s good training for them. And he can send one of his people over here and I’ll do the same for know. So having some of those little exchange thought exchange experiments are good, too, right?

Carajane Moore [00:45:17]:

Well, and always encourage. I encourage everybody. Go find your own mentors. Go find people that can help guide you in understanding where you should be going in your career, not only in your own business, but outside of your business.

Marcia Barnes [00:45:31]:

Hang out with folks. You and I are, in truth of work together and the Alliance Forum. And we bank. We’re out there shoulder to shoulder with all these other business people, improving ourselves, learning together and creating those relationships. And it’s invaluable in your development.

Carajane Moore [00:45:47]:

Absolutely. And because of that, we have such a wider view of what’s happening in the marketplace.

Marcia Barnes [00:45:53]:


Carajane Moore [00:45:53]:

And that’s what allows us to bring our expertise into the conversations because you get to hear about what somebody’s like, well, such and such this is going on. And so in construction, and I’m talking with my construction client, I can ask him that question and he’s like, how is it that you know so much about my industry?

Marcia Barnes [00:46:10]:


Carajane Moore [00:46:10]:

Because we’re out talking to multiple people in multiple industries.

Marcia Barnes [00:46:14]:

Right. That’s great.

Marcia Barnes [00:46:15]:

Carajane, thanks so much for coming in today for this conversation. I knew this was going to be great. You never disappoint. What’s the best way for someone to connect with you who wants to grow their organization by 10Xing their deal value? Where should they look for you at?

Carajane Moore [00:46:29]:

Well, first of all, I appreciate the softball. That’s exactly the type of people we want to talk to. But I’ll talk to everybody. But I do like that.

Marcia Barnes [00:46:36]:


Carajane Moore [00:46:36]:

So the best way to reach us, I’m The website is The book is on Amazon and on the website you’ll hear all about that. But there’s also lots of places to say, connect with Carajane, and I’d love to talk to you.

Marcia Barnes [00:46:55]:


Marcia Barnes [00:46:55]:

Absolutely great. And you have helped a lot of people, and it’s been good to see the journey that you’re on. Continue growing girl. It’s been an impressive thing to watch.

Carajane Moore [00:47:04]:

Oh, thank you. Thanks so much. And thanks for all of your guidance. I appreciate it.

Marcia Barnes [00:47:07]:

Sure thing.

Here We Grow Narrator [00:47:10]:

Thank you for joining us for Here We Grow. This show is proudly brought to you by Valve+Meter Performance Marketing. Be sure to check out the show notes for exclusive content that will help you become a transformational leader. For more, visit